USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Owlman » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:22 pm

TBar wrote:

Man my issue is that the whole process sounds pretty questionable. They just assemble a few people, show them their case and ask them to say yes or no. Who picks these people? Man what happens if the people on the hearing panel just don't like you? This whole 'quasi-government agency' deal is what I question simply because these are the lives of hard working people at stake here. Don't' get me wrong, if you are guilty, then you deserve a ban but it says they won almost all cases they go after which sounds easy when they get to control the playing field, so to speak. The potential to destroy the life, career and legacy of an innocent person just seems too high for the power they wield.


The panel runs pretty much like a grand jury. If probable cause is found, the matter rolls to a final hearing. Judge Wachtler famously once said that a decent prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. This process is similar. To continue with the pun, the real "meat" is the final hearing. I recall that the Floyd Landis hearing was administered by the American Arbitration Association, which typically is a 3-judge panel. I am a certified AAA arbitrator; it's a very solid process. Typically each party picks an arbitrator, then those two arbitrators pick the third, who will serve as Chair. Helps add objectivety and removes potential bias from the process. The great thing about arbitration is that the arbitrators typically have deep experience in the subject matter they are adjudicating, unlike a jury that is mostly laypeople. This can be very, very good for Lance if he is truly innocent or there is serious taint in the testing process, or really really bad for him if he truly guilty. If he is truly guilty, he would likely fare better before a jury as a jury could be star struck and may be confused by very scientific testimony and lawyer "smoke and mirror" defenses.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:24 pm

Pretty sure that is why Landis and Hamilton both got shafted in their USADA hearing.

None the less, here is what is going to happen,
1) USADA gives sanction
2) Lance and party appeal to CAS
3) Super long CAS hearing
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:25 pm

and totally agreeing with TBar here, that this is the most productive post we have had on here in awhile...
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby TBar » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Owlman wrote:
TBar wrote:

Man my issue is that the whole process sounds pretty questionable. They just assemble a few people, show them their case and ask them to say yes or no. Who picks these people? Man what happens if the people on the hearing panel just don't like you? This whole 'quasi-government agency' deal is what I question simply because these are the lives of hard working people at stake here. Don't' get me wrong, if you are guilty, then you deserve a ban but it says they won almost all cases they go after which sounds easy when they get to control the playing field, so to speak. The potential to destroy the life, career and legacy of an innocent person just seems too high for the power they wield.


The panel runs pretty much like a grand jury. If probable cause is found, the matter rolls to a final hearing. Judge Wachtler famously once said that a decent prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. This process is similar. To continue with the pun, the real "meat" is the final hearing. I recall that the Floyd Landis hearing was administered by the American Arbitration Association, which typically is a 3-judge panel. I am a certified AAA arbitrator; it's a very solid process. Typically each party picks an arbitrator, then those two arbitrators pick the third, who will serve as Chair. Helps add objectivety and removes potential bias from the process. The great thing about arbitration is that the arbitrators typically have deep experience in the subject matter they are adjudicating, unlike a jury that is mostly laypeople. This can be very, very good for Lance if he is truly innocent or there is serious taint in the testing process, or really really bad for him if he truly guilty. If he is truly guilty, he would likely fare better before a jury as a jury could be star struck and may be confused by very scientific testimony and lawyer "smoke and mirror" defenses.


That makes more sense. It sounded (from this lay person's perspective) that the usada controlled the selection process, what evidence was shared and the accuser basically had no involvement until the final hearing (even though they immediately are under ban orders as soon as this develops).

Now here's a more general question for the certified AAA bird. It sounds like this is a competing approach to a general 'jury by peers' process. Is that because the Usada's original mandate gave them this structure and they have no choice but to use it, it is considered better/more effective than a jury or is that because the Usada operates essentially outside of a court room and they are not required to follow the same processes? I guess in my head, if my ass were on the line, I'd fight too to get this put into a full court room and get the full protections and processes of the legal system in play. Guilt or innocence.

So any chance Olwman could be on the panel?
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby TBar » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:53 pm

It's an interesting ban. I wonder if other countries have done this, but in short any Italian cyclist is banned from talking to or working with Ferrari. And if proven that they did, they receive a ban.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:57 pm

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:50 pm

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Dano » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:18 pm

I don't get the preoccupation with 2008-09 violations. Can we live a little more in the present or are the authorities so incompetent that they have to look that far behind to justify their salaries?
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:02 am

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Semper Fi » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:34 pm

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:54 pm

Exactly.
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Breaking News re: USADA vs Armstrong

Postby Clemson20 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:34 am

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report- ... -armstrong

Very interesting depending on how much is accurate. Most of the riders were tight-lipped this morning before the stage. I'm surprised if this is true, they would let these guys start the stage today.
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Re: Breaking News re: USADA vs Armstrong

Postby Clemson20 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:42 am

http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/ ... n-by-usada

And a follow up article. Nobody really denying the charges. This has the feel of a witch hunt against Lance especially since they seem to offer non-existent suspensions (Sept- March) and amnesty on their doping charges.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Ward » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:26 am

I'm okay with them going after Armstrong, but Big Georgie? WTF? All he was doing was whatever Lance told him to do.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:58 am

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:12 am

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby jubie » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:43 am

Be sure to click on the interview article link. Very interesting read on Vaughters.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:56 am

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Corbett » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:46 am

Hmmm.... to keep the truth from coming out, or not...that is the question. May I add: whatever truth that may be.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ ... s-16739619
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:02 am

Ha. Fucking priceless. I hope they crucify him.

Potazzo pretty much let the cat out of the bag on Ferarri, so no surprise that this was coming down. I am sure some more riders will fall.
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:21 am

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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Colin » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:46 pm

The_Whiz wrote:Potazzo pretty much let the cat out of the bag on Ferarri, so no surprise that this was coming down. I am sure some more riders will fall.


Reading that article is ridiculous.

"Ferrari was the best. Everybody knows that.” "I improved more in a few weeks with him than in six months with others." "Ferrari’s infamous camper van was there for me to shower in when I’d finished.”
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Owlman » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:01 pm

Corbett wrote:Hmmm.... to keep the truth from coming out, or not...that is the question. May I add: whatever truth that may be.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ ... s-16739619


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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:03 pm

What's next? The Lance Presidential Pardon?
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:10 pm

colin wrote:
The_Whiz wrote:Potazzo pretty much let the cat out of the bag on Ferarri, so no surprise that this was coming down. I am sure some more riders will fall.


Reading that article is ridiculous.

"Ferrari was the best. Everybody knows that.” "I improved more in a few weeks with him than in six months with others." "Ferrari’s infamous camper van was there for me to shower in when I’d finished.”


His logic saying that everyone he worked with was a doper, was even better
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby The_Whiz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:16 pm

So my question to the lawyers on here... Theoretically if this blockage goes through and they deem that USADA is not allowed to directly suspend without going through the UCI, will that provide legal leverage for past/present or future doping cases to be thrown out, based on the same precedence?
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Re: USADA Charges Lance, Bans him from Triathlons

Postby Corbett » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Owlman wrote:
Corbett wrote:Hmmm.... to keep the truth from coming out, or not...that is the question. May I add: whatever truth that may be.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ ... s-16739619


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Yeah, I'd think so. If anything....it looks like a last ditch effort to "Supress" evidence.

Isn't there argument that if this were to go to a real trial, the law would protect him from ever being charged again once found not guilty? Let it go to trail and be found not guilty so you can move on. If in fact you aren't guilty. Of course, that's the American court system. Would the same be true in the European legal system?
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